How would you know whether an ancient culture had zero?

(johndcook.com)

44 points | by ibobev 4 days ago ago

17 comments

  • lisp2240 4 hours ago

    Zero has two roles: as a positional placeholder and as a cardinal value (nothingness or net-zero). This only addresses the former.

    • j16sdiz 3 hours ago

      Afaict, most ancient civization have conception of "nothingness" or "emptiness". The dispute is often whether they consider it as a number or not

      • philipov 33 minutes ago

        We have both. Zero and Null are different data types.

  • gmuslera 5 hours ago

    Looks like translating a positional numbering system from ancient cultures than ruling out or not if they had the concept of zero. It may be a single use symbol, here is nothing, instead of being part of bigger amounts. Numbering systems doesn't have to be positional (nor go too far).

    • whatsThisBtn4 5 hours ago

      Gosh I love Wittgenstein for this.

      I highly recommend suffering through both early and late Wittgenstein (only wrote 2 books and essentially invented one of the 3 branches of philosophy).

      Expect to only understand 10% of what he says, but that is normal.

      Separately, pragmatism by William James is an easy 4 hour read and you can have 2/3 of the branches of meta philosophy.

  • conartist6 3 hours ago

    What I wonder is: why has nobody noticed that code editors lack a concept of 0?

    When you're writing code, you can express any concept except that of an unfilled hole. We've rearranged every part of the coding process in a twisted-up way, all for the lack of a way to express lack.

    If you want to be more clear about what I mean, look to tools which can express holes like https://scratch.mit.edu and https://hazel.org. They give the feeling of letting things snap together like lego bricks. Indeed, lego bricks themselves function because of the negative space (the holes) in them!

    • mungoman2 38 minutes ago

      This could be interesting but too vague for me to understand what you mean. Could it be explained more clearly, or link some blog entry?

      • conartist6 25 minutes ago

        Yeah, I will. I'm being a bit coy because I already have a very specific solution in mind which would be a lot like Scratch, but unifying those ideas with syntax. It should be fully ready to share quite soon.

    • dosisking 33 minutes ago

      Like Madlibs?

      • conartist6isme 9 minutes ago

        Ugh I got rate limited so I had to make a new acct just to post this reply:

        Sure! Like mad libs if you couldn't be sure if _____ was a missing part or the text what was meant to be there. In a mad lib it's obvious, but with code it may be less obvious. You certainly can't just use _ with code. Even the nil code point is allowed in some programming languages' source code (e.g. rust).

    • onestay42 3 hours ago

      How about an `extern` variable in C?

      • conartist6 2 hours ago

        A million variations exist. I'm looking for a programming-language-agnostic concept. The closest you'll find are templating languages like Handlebars

        • skew-aberration an hour ago

          Delimited continuations? Though I'm not totally clear what you're asking for. Semantics or syntax?

          • conartist6isme 9 minutes ago

            Syntax. Delimited continuations would be a similar concept but for semantics

  • thaumasiotes an hour ago

    > If you knew somehow that some symbol corresponds to 20, then you’d know they didn’t use base 20 because base b doesn’t have a single symbol for b.

    Well, this is plainly false.

    • CamperBob2 15 minutes ago

      I suppose Roman numerals would be one counterexample, but are there any number systems based on place/position value that qualify as counterexamples?

      • thaumasiotes 9 minutes ago

        Of course. The Chinese number system is base 10 (or, if you scale way up, base 10,000) with a positional writing system.

        The symbol for ten is 十. Heck, there's also a symbol for twenty, 廿, and it exists despite the number system being base 10. Anything that has to be written a lot is likely to have a convenient written form.

        If you're curious, zero is 零. Successive zeroes are combined, so 一千零一 is 1001. 5147 would be 五千一百四十七. 10, as previously mentioned, is 十.