So the boil-down on this is "Here's a theory that says about 5-10% of Earth's mass was mostly carbon and came all at once, like if Theia was mostly carbon and we got hit by it, so we did some simulation and the idea Theia was mostly carbon isn't ruled out by our current understanding of how our solar system might have formed?"
If so, cool. It's a wise step to check the hypothesis to make sure it isn't immediately contradicting what we already understand.
and thank you for letting me learn of an entirely new and delightful word today. Why you were downvoted for this harmless bit of dry-cut wit, I haven't a clue.
Imagine if life had evolved on Earth or Theia prior to impact. Imagine if it was intelligent and played witness to the giant cataclysm.
Given that intelligence took an awfully long time to emerge from LUCA, that seems implausible. But it's fun to imagine pre-Theia "Silurians". That sort of impact would have scorched earth of any trace or remnant of their existence. It feels as though there must be sufficiently advanced civilizations out there witnessing this exact scenario play out without the necessary technology to stop it. Though that fate would be horrifying.
Another thing to think about is that shortly after the Big Bang (if there was one, Lamda-CDM or similar models holding up), was that shortly after the Big Bang the temperature of the early universe was uniformly 0-100 degrees Celsius. It may have been possible for life to originated in this primordial interstellar medium without even so much as needing a host planet or star! Just life coalescing in space itself.
That early primordial soup, if it existed, could have seeded the whole universe. Most aliens might have matching molecules and chirality if those decisions predate our galaxy.
Also more importantly: it was uniformly warm. No gradients.
Life on earth doesn't work because we get energy from the sun. It works because we get low entropy energy from the sun and can radiate high entropy energy into cold space.
> It feels as though there must be sufficiently advanced civilizations out there witnessing this exact scenario play out without the necessary technology to stop it. Though that fate would be horrifying.
I suspect this is not actually that common. Giant impacts are more common in early solar systems; things eventually settle into nice circular orbits like we have now. Whereas intelligent life does seem to take a while to evolve, so probably more common later in a solar system's life cycle.
Depends how you count it. One planet, but a solid handful of mass extinctions with big adaptive radiations, most with several million years of development, and tons of reasonably intelligent social animals, only one of which produced industrial civilization. But yes, working with the best evidence we have...
Our sun and earth won't last long enough, but Mercury's orbit is potentially unstable.
A red dwarf might harbor live bearing planets long enough to see its long-lived orbits eventually destabilize. Or perhaps witness the even rarer interstellar collision or destabilization from rogue planets, etc.
He makes no claim to what life was before the formation of the moon, but rather than the cataclysm of formation of the moon is what changed life on Earth - of course he wraps the whole idea up in his mysticism - but his 1950s writing on this was not far off what happened.
I remember there being some modeling done to determine whether the Theia impact blew a chunk off Earth or basically re-liquified the planet. If I recall correctly, the resulting hypothesis was that the thermal load would have re-melted at least the crust (evidence for this was stacking of density in the moon, suggesting it formed out of a basically completely-liquified ball, which would have implied the crust was also liquified).
There is some interesting evidence suggesting the deeper layers remained intact, in the form of a region under the Pacific that might be the impact scar. It's an inexplicably-dense zone that causes hot-spots at its corners resulting in increased surface volcanism, like how the edges of a leaf burn before the middle in a fire.
According to physics simulations, the atmosphere was composed of vaporised rock for several centuries after the impact until it cooled down below 1000 degrees. The entire surface was magma. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synestia
No; I don't remember the article saying specifically but I would assume if there is no solid land left, there is no liquid water left either. Water molecules would have been blasted into the "crust soup" and eventually re-condensed into gaseous water and eventually liquid water via atmospheric regeneration after the surface settled down a bit (because the chemicals that could be gaseous would have tended to float to the top of the soup as it settled down).
The pre-Theia "Silurians" as you call them, depending on technological level could have left traces in the solar system like our Parker Solar Probe or something in the Lagrange points.
Then again, how well do we know of stuff in these spaces today? It seems to me we barely have a clue of the space junk we ourselves sent up orbiting in our backyard.
We certainly cannot know if a previous intelligent civilization was present on earth before the impact.
And is not even that the impact erased their trace from earth, is that if they got extinct long enough (more than 100 million years ago), with today's technology, we cannot infer their presence, given the fossil (and other types of) record.
The early universe was actually billions of degrees immediately post-Big Bang and remained far too hot for liquid water for hundreds of thousands of years, only reaching "habitable" temperatures long after matter had already begun forming into structures.
Temperature on its own wouldn't be enough for life would it? Isn't everything moving around way too fast after the Big bang and therefore too far apart for whatever life there would be to find food (or whatever equivalent source of energy)
Temperature isn’t even close to being enough. If we didn’t have a moon, despite everything else being so good for life, we may have been stuck at the bacterial phase if we didn’t have tides, or life may have never formed at all due to minerals not being recycled, tide pools not concentrating amino acids, and constant wet-dry phases driving evolutionary pushes.
Edit: beyond that, there’s the need for a stable orbit, a stable axial tilt, a stable star (few mega flares), some kind of galactic shield a la Jupiter, and more.
> Imagine if life had evolved on Earth or Theia prior to impact.
There's good reason why this first era of Earth's history is called the "Hadean eon" - as in the fires of hell.
> Throughout part of the eon, impacts from extraterrestrial bodies released enormous amounts of heat that likely prevented much of the rock from solidifying at the surface. As such, the name of the interval is a reference to Hades, a Greek translation of the Hebrew word for hell.
>Imagine if it was intelligent and played witness to the giant cataclysm.
They'd have had to be watching from one very high orbit, and even then I wouldn't bet favorably on their chances considering the sheer gargantuan volume of debris Theia tossed into the space above earth.
Anywhere terrestrial and they'd be dead far too quickly to watch much of anything. I've seen some fairly detailed models on the presumed effects of this collision and it would have rapidly super-heated the whole Earth's atmosphere while vaporizing or melting the crust of the entire world down to a depth of at least several hundred meters. Good luck finding a bunker that can handle that.
The last giant impactor so far.
So the boil-down on this is "Here's a theory that says about 5-10% of Earth's mass was mostly carbon and came all at once, like if Theia was mostly carbon and we got hit by it, so we did some simulation and the idea Theia was mostly carbon isn't ruled out by our current understanding of how our solar system might have formed?"
If so, cool. It's a wise step to check the hypothesis to make sure it isn't immediately contradicting what we already understand.
The moon has 1.2% the mass of earth, so earth still got embiggened
What an epically cromulent day it was.
and thank you for letting me learn of an entirely new and delightful word today. Why you were downvoted for this harmless bit of dry-cut wit, I haven't a clue.
Thanks for the inline dictionary lookup, I TIL'd that both of those words were popularized by the Simpsons.
Imagine if life had evolved on Earth or Theia prior to impact. Imagine if it was intelligent and played witness to the giant cataclysm.
Given that intelligence took an awfully long time to emerge from LUCA, that seems implausible. But it's fun to imagine pre-Theia "Silurians". That sort of impact would have scorched earth of any trace or remnant of their existence. It feels as though there must be sufficiently advanced civilizations out there witnessing this exact scenario play out without the necessary technology to stop it. Though that fate would be horrifying.
Another thing to think about is that shortly after the Big Bang (if there was one, Lamda-CDM or similar models holding up), was that shortly after the Big Bang the temperature of the early universe was uniformly 0-100 degrees Celsius. It may have been possible for life to originated in this primordial interstellar medium without even so much as needing a host planet or star! Just life coalescing in space itself.
That early primordial soup, if it existed, could have seeded the whole universe. Most aliens might have matching molecules and chirality if those decisions predate our galaxy.
That early warm interval would have been a soup of 75% H, 25% He, and 0.0000000% or so Li, with nothing heavier.
Not much to start life with.
Also more importantly: it was uniformly warm. No gradients.
Life on earth doesn't work because we get energy from the sun. It works because we get low entropy energy from the sun and can radiate high entropy energy into cold space.
(There's approximately no net energy inflow.)
No metals whatsoever. That's unfortunate.
Metal and hard rock are essential for life.
As Douglas Adams wrote, life is about banging the rocks together.
I think they were referring to metals like carbon and oxygen, but I’m sure Led Zeppelin is important too.
> It feels as though there must be sufficiently advanced civilizations out there witnessing this exact scenario play out without the necessary technology to stop it. Though that fate would be horrifying.
I suspect this is not actually that common. Giant impacts are more common in early solar systems; things eventually settle into nice circular orbits like we have now. Whereas intelligent life does seem to take a while to evolve, so probably more common later in a solar system's life cycle.
> Whereas intelligent life does seem to take a while to evolve
basing that theory on an anecdotal story of 1.
Depends how you count it. One planet, but a solid handful of mass extinctions with big adaptive radiations, most with several million years of development, and tons of reasonably intelligent social animals, only one of which produced industrial civilization. But yes, working with the best evidence we have...
While true, the opposite is true that we have zero evidence of any life whatsoever, anywhere, ever, except with us.
You got better evidence?
Uncommon for sure.
Our sun and earth won't last long enough, but Mercury's orbit is potentially unstable.
A red dwarf might harbor live bearing planets long enough to see its long-lived orbits eventually destabilize. Or perhaps witness the even rarer interstellar collision or destabilization from rogue planets, etc.
Gurdjieff takes a different view on the cause and formation of the moon, which in some sense lines up with this - https://www.gurdjieff.org/beelzebub9.htm
He makes no claim to what life was before the formation of the moon, but rather than the cataclysm of formation of the moon is what changed life on Earth - of course he wraps the whole idea up in his mysticism - but his 1950s writing on this was not far off what happened.
This animation makes it appear that proto-Earth was very comprehensibly torn apart, stunningly so
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theia_(hypothetical_planet)#Co...
I remember there being some modeling done to determine whether the Theia impact blew a chunk off Earth or basically re-liquified the planet. If I recall correctly, the resulting hypothesis was that the thermal load would have re-melted at least the crust (evidence for this was stacking of density in the moon, suggesting it formed out of a basically completely-liquified ball, which would have implied the crust was also liquified).
There is some interesting evidence suggesting the deeper layers remained intact, in the form of a region under the Pacific that might be the impact scar. It's an inexplicably-dense zone that causes hot-spots at its corners resulting in increased surface volcanism, like how the edges of a leaf burn before the middle in a fire.
... but on the surface? Yeah, no hiding place.
Would oceans have remained at all?
According to physics simulations, the atmosphere was composed of vaporised rock for several centuries after the impact until it cooled down below 1000 degrees. The entire surface was magma. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synestia
No; I don't remember the article saying specifically but I would assume if there is no solid land left, there is no liquid water left either. Water molecules would have been blasted into the "crust soup" and eventually re-condensed into gaseous water and eventually liquid water via atmospheric regeneration after the surface settled down a bit (because the chemicals that could be gaseous would have tended to float to the top of the soup as it settled down).
The pre-Theia "Silurians" as you call them, depending on technological level could have left traces in the solar system like our Parker Solar Probe or something in the Lagrange points.
Then again, how well do we know of stuff in these spaces today? It seems to me we barely have a clue of the space junk we ourselves sent up orbiting in our backyard.
We certainly cannot know if a previous intelligent civilization was present on earth before the impact.
And is not even that the impact erased their trace from earth, is that if they got extinct long enough (more than 100 million years ago), with today's technology, we cannot infer their presence, given the fossil (and other types of) record.
A great write up about this is: https://archive.is/https://pacificklaus.com/the-silurian-hyp...
The early universe was actually billions of degrees immediately post-Big Bang and remained far too hot for liquid water for hundreds of thousands of years, only reaching "habitable" temperatures long after matter had already begun forming into structures.
Temperature on its own wouldn't be enough for life would it? Isn't everything moving around way too fast after the Big bang and therefore too far apart for whatever life there would be to find food (or whatever equivalent source of energy)
Temperature isn’t even close to being enough. If we didn’t have a moon, despite everything else being so good for life, we may have been stuck at the bacterial phase if we didn’t have tides, or life may have never formed at all due to minerals not being recycled, tide pools not concentrating amino acids, and constant wet-dry phases driving evolutionary pushes.
Edit: beyond that, there’s the need for a stable orbit, a stable axial tilt, a stable star (few mega flares), some kind of galactic shield a la Jupiter, and more.
"Need" may be overstating it. Those things certainly all seem to have helped, though.
That second idea (cosmic primordial soup causing universal similarity / compatibility of life) could be a great component of a sci-fi story.
> Imagine if life had evolved on Earth or Theia prior to impact.
There's good reason why this first era of Earth's history is called the "Hadean eon" - as in the fires of hell.
> Throughout part of the eon, impacts from extraterrestrial bodies released enormous amounts of heat that likely prevented much of the rock from solidifying at the surface. As such, the name of the interval is a reference to Hades, a Greek translation of the Hebrew word for hell.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadean
https://www.britannica.com/science/Hadean-Eon
>Imagine if it was intelligent and played witness to the giant cataclysm.
They'd have had to be watching from one very high orbit, and even then I wouldn't bet favorably on their chances considering the sheer gargantuan volume of debris Theia tossed into the space above earth.
Anywhere terrestrial and they'd be dead far too quickly to watch much of anything. I've seen some fairly detailed models on the presumed effects of this collision and it would have rapidly super-heated the whole Earth's atmosphere while vaporizing or melting the crust of the entire world down to a depth of at least several hundred meters. Good luck finding a bunker that can handle that.